Irish Setter KENNEL CLUB Breed Standard
11-May-06
The Tale of Havoc
INTERNATIONALLY SEEN from a breeder judge
SETTING THE TAIL INTERNATIONALLY SEEN from a breeder judge
INTERNATIONALLY SEEN from a breeder judge
For MEMO Irish Setter Club of America August 09
Gabriela Garcia Gtz
Before starting this new subject, I want to say that there are a lot of positive things to write about the Irish Setter breed on this continent, as it is sounder than in some other places I have seen, generally speaking, of course and comparing with other countries where our Irish look very nice but do not have the proper balanced structures to move fluidly well with reach and propulsión. The good breeding performed by several Irish Setter breeders in the USA has a tremendous influence in the world. No question about it.
This time I write about something I am sure many of you have not realized.
Setting the Tail
This is something else that puzzles me: I mean the way that 90% of handlers, breeders, etc., in the USA pull the tail above the spine level when stacking the Irish Setter.
As a judge, I can tell you, that action directs my sight directly to the croup, and then I begin wondering how good or bad is that tail set, because you had to pull it. I know perfectly well why you pull it that way, in order to enhance the body, because as a réflex then the dogs pull their entire body frontwards showing more angulation and chest. Believe me, not everybody will buy it. From that very moment not only the tail set should be in the mind of the judge, but also the rest to be examined.
And it is sooo wrong and looks sooo awful. The Irish Setter when stacked should show a pleasant and continuous elegant topline. That topline is totally spoiled and is broken when you pull the tail as you would with (for example) a Coonhound.
Even the Irish Setter while performing its work setting the prey, not even then, when its essential function is being performed, is it stated that the tail should look or be above the back. All the standards from UK KC, AKC, CKC, FCI, all of them are very clear defining where and how the tail is set and carried, implying without any question how it should look when being seen.
Marked in bold letters is what describes the tail in the official breed standards on 5 continents:
UK Breed Standard http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/100
Tail
: Of moderate length proportionate to size of body, set on just below the level of the back, strong at root tapering to a fine point and carried as nearly as possible on a level with or below the back.
AKC Breed Standard http://www.akc.org/breeds/irish_setter/
The tail is set on nearly level with the croup as a natural extension of the topline, strong at root, tapering to a fine point, nearly long enough to reach the hock. Carriage straight or curving slightly upward, nearly level with the back.
Canadian Kennel Club Standard http://www.ckc.ca/en/Default.aspx?tabid=99&BreedCode=STI
Tail : Strong at root, tapering to fine point, about long enough to reach the hock. Carriage straight or curving slightly upward, nearly level with the back.
Fédération Cynologique InternationaIe
http://www.fci.be/nomenclature.aspx
TAIL: Moderate length, proportionate to size of body, set on rather low, strong at root, tapering to fine point. Carried level with or below back.
So all these standards represent much of the World regarding the norms for judging and understanding the Red Irish Setter. None of them imply that the tail should be pulled and held above the spine level in order to show the proper tail set or carriage.
I just received a picture of one of my dogs, who’s now living in another country. I was shocked, look, the body looks great but then the whole picture is spoiled because of the tail …because the position is wrong . But many Irish Setters that I see quite often in the rings look just like this one, this pose has become so common .
Remember, … this is just how it is internationally seen in the rest of the World, where handlers and breeders try to show their Irish Setters according to a standard, to a form and function and that is precisely showing a natural tail set as an extension of their back, and judges know this very well.
They, we , all of us, like to see a beautiful top line.
INTERNATIONALLY SEEN from a breeder judge
For MEMO Irish Setter Club of America October 09
Gabriela García Gtz
This article only refers to my simple and humble opinion regarding finishing an Irish Setter at young age. I also write it because this great achievement is really a puzzle for me. One, because I am a breeder and I truly think our breed looks much better when they are mature, and 2, because I am a judge … and by the way, one who really seeks and judges soundness not just “prettyness”, so I have the full panorama.
Let me explain myself, and I hope we do not get lost in translation. An Irish Setter really blooms when he is 3 or 4 years old. Agree??? Well, certainly our breed and certain bloodlines are very slow getting to full bloom, so… finishing a youngster REALLY IS A GREAT ACHIEVEMENT. But what happens next??? Right after the advertising and finishing this young Irish is done and
over??? Tell me what happens next.??
Many of those Irish wind up sitting at home, few continue a deserved career. Yes, it is true, there is the high cost of showing AND campaigning a dog, and for some people the importance of breeding a certain number of Champions for making numbers, but that is only quantity. Yes, it is true also that sometimes one needs to concentrate on the next candidate, and so on and so on… We can find some other valid reasons… For someone like me who attends your dog shows, it is a puzzle why I have not heard from that lovely dog I saw , for example, at the last National, or during such and such a circuit. What happened to him or her, is something wrong??? Wasn’t the dog good enough after maturing? All of the above, or None?
I can only speak for myself, but please think about it because many of your dogs deserve to be seen and you as exhibitors and breeders can still have fun with that young one who finally matured - and if they were awesome as youngster, imagine them later.
I do it very differently than many of you, and I am not referring to how I do it in my country, but how I approach showing my dogs in your country. I let the youngsters grow, and when they are mature in body and brain, then it is possible they will go to the USA. Many judges indeed wonder how come a dog or bitch of a certain age is shown in open and “still” not finished, so the handler needs to explain that this dog is foreign. North American judges seem to be satisfied then with the answer and I have not found any error in my decision .
Sweepstakes is fun. Surely is, and I am not saying what is wrong and what is correct, I just find many of your beautiful Irish are not seen anymore after they finish. Is the Championship the only goal??? … Think about getting back to the ring with those young ones that are now in full bloom; I can assure you this is worthy. Keep showing your dogs, not necessarily a campaign , but sparingly shown; it means a lot to still show the finished product to other breeders.
I have always compared the Irish Setters with swans, and young swans are not complete at all. I can not even say they are pretty . I find my Irish young ones pretty, because I am in love with the breed and I am a breeder judge who can understand the way many sporting dogs grow up, but I can imagine All-breed judges who are not experienced in the development of these breeds, and wonder how they can find a true winner.
In Mexico, our rules for obtaining Championship require 8 certificates for Championship or point, no majors, but at least 4 of those 8 points have to be awarded after the dog is 15 months old. I still find them young - I always grade my Irish at 3 months old and I always tell them “I do not want to see you again until you are 3 years old”….So….As I began this article saying…. This is only my simple and humble opinión . From a breeder judge. Gabriela García Gtz/
Give us the pleasure of seeing your dogs after they finish.
By Gabriela Garcia Gutz
Submitted by Larry & Alberta Jonson
Irish Setter Club of America INC. Memo to Members
June, 1995
Several years ago we at Allegiance received a visit from a cute Chubby little boy who was looking for an Irish Setter puppy. He was the son of a friend, so we let him make his selection from a litter that we had at that time. He was delighted with the puppy he chose.
Some weeks later we heard that the pup had gotten Parvo and died. This was in spite of having had all his shots befote he was sold. The boy was devastated by his loss.
Two years ago, the parents heard that we had another litter and asked us if we would let him have another puppy for their son. We felt that we owed the kid and his Mother some consideration, so they came to see the pups. I showed him the most mischievous and affectionate one in the litter. It was obvious from the look on the kid's face that he had fallen in love with the puppy. I told him how very nice the pup was and that I wanted him to get his show championship. I told him that the dog was not a present, and he must pay for him. I asked, “How much do you have in your pocket?” He answered, “10 pesos ($3.30 dlls).” I said, “well it’s okay for me to sign the transfer papers”. He then took his puppy home.
I saw his mother quite often and always asked about the dog. Her answer was always the same, handsome, coated dog, but he eats tires (yes car tires) and the paper bulks. They have a paper business at their home. She would tell me how terrible the dog was, but they adored him and had named him Havoc.
Around July 1993, I received a strange phone call from someone I didn’t know. He swore that he had a dog of mine. He said that the dog had been found loose in his district. A friend of his had the dog for a couple of months, and he even mentioned a third person who had been the first one to find the dog. He said that the dog was chained all day long, and he had finally gotten him and was taking care of him. I didn’t understand his story at all and doubed that he could be speaking to the correct person as I had no knowledge of one of my dogs being lost, and I had not sold any dogs to anyone in that area. I asked him why he was so sure that the dog was one of mine or at least from my kennel. He said that he found a tattoo on the dog and had called the FCM (Mexican Kennel Club). They checked and gave him my name as the person registered to that number. I recognized the number as the one that was put on Havoc. I told him that it was imposible as the dog belonged to a boy whose mother I has just seen a week ago and she had told me the dog was fine. He replied ‘No lady, I have him and he has been staying at my house for a month’. I told him that I wanted the dog back and asked him for his address. He remained silent, then I heard another voice. I hadn’t realizad that anyone was listening to the entire conversation. It was the fellows mother telling him, “Son you must tell her your address”. The guy still remained silent. The mother took the phone and said, “lady, my son has been caring for the dog, he is okay and he has wanted to keep him and to let you know that this dog is fine”. We live in an apartament, and cannot keep him. We didn’t know the dog had a tattoo at first, when we saw it I convinced him to call the FCM. He didn’t want to, but I realized the dog belongs to someone, and they would want him back. I told her thanks, wrote the address down, which was on the other side of the city from where Havoc had lived. I sent money to the guy and had Havoc picked up and taken directly to the vet right away before those people changed their minds about returning him. I then called my friends home to ask about Havoc. Her father told me “Yes Gabriela, the dog was lost about 6 to 8 months ago. Someone left the door open and he just ran away and they didn’t look for him because he was a Havoc.”
I called my vet as soon as Havoc got to his clinic. He told me, Gabby, you wouldn’t believe what condition he is in. He is extremely sick. He has hookworms, tapeworms, and many other parasites. Ticks, fleas, conjunctivitis, an ear infection, and demodectic mange. It is a miracle that he is alive and in one piece. I am glad that you haven’t seen him. The vet said that he couldn’t let the dog come into my house as he was a risk to the rest of my dogs and to my baby.
Days passed and we heard that Havoc was an escape artist. He was breaking out of crates and had broken some crates. The vets recommendation was to get rid of the dog as soon as possible. After paying an expensive bill about three weeks later, we received Havoc, totally shaved, He was all bones with traces of wounds on his back and tail, but complete with two eyes, all teeth, and no broken bones.
I didin’t know what Havoc meant in English until Larry Jonson told me during one of their visitations when they met Havoc. Now I understand the real meaning of so many things about this Havoc dog.
For those of you who haven’t been in Mexico City, it
is very difficult to explain to you how many dogs there are running free in
the streets and what condition they are in. There are literally millions,
and I’m not kidding. They are a major problem and risk in the city.
It is amazing how they learn to avoid being hit by cars. They usually learn
after a broken bone or two, those that survive being hit once. It is rare
to see only one or two dogs, They are usually in packs feeding on garbage
along the steets.
My heart broke to think of all the abuse dogs a young Irish Setter had endured.
He was three months old when he left my home and was lost in the streets not
long after that, until we got him back.
Taking the vets advise Havoc was put in a kennel so he couldn’t escape. Every plate of meal he was served was eaten in a few seconds, and he drank water like he never had before. He wouldn’t look us in the eye, or respond to his name. He wasn’t a fighter, nor was he afraid of the other dogs or people, he just didn’t respond to people. He was just indifferent. All the other dogs we have had who have returned after long absences have recognized the place, our voices or smell, or at least, Luis, our kennel boy of five years.
For months Havoc was not allowed to run free in the garden with the other dogs for fear that he would escape. He was served four small meals per day for months as his stomach couldn’t tolerate much. It has taken him months to show trust of other dogs or people. As soon as he looked nicer and had grown back some of his shaved coat, I started to run ads in the newspapers. Havoc has had the opportunity to be owned by five different people, and probably very good owners, the kind of dream of for all our dogs. All the potential homes fell through for one reason or another, so it appears that destiny has had a hand in leaving him here.
With his shaved coat, his faults stood out as though they were magnified, and it made it hard for me to look at him as a show dog. Others looked at him and told me he might be one of my nicest dogs.
Over a year has passed since we got Havoc back. He is still
a bit indifferent, but is very sweet and has become a very handsome red beauty.
He is obedient, has never broken a crate, doesn’t try to escape and
is no a fighter, but will respond to aggression from another dog. He eats
and drinks as a normal dog and plays alone or with his littermates. He has
a very balanced personality, minds his own business, and guards the house
or car. The sweet look of the Irish has returned to his 
eyes, but he has still
not shown much attachment to us except an occasional kiss.
Some months ago there was an important show circuit in Mexico City. I decided to show all my new generation of Irish Setter Littermates, including Havoc. Havoc was the only one that had not been shown, groomed or had a lead on. He had just been enjoying having a home and a garden to play in. A handler friend of mine offered her assistance in training Havoc as I had four other dogs to prepare. Unfortunately she got a terrible flu and didn’t get to meet Havoc until the day of the show. The first day he was a little bit insecure about what was going on, but he wasn’t afraid, not even of the judge, who had a hat and raincoat on during a heavy rain and thunderstorm. He remained steady and gaited with his head and tail up. He was only a bit unsure about turns in the ring. He looked at his handler as though saying, weren’t we going straight. The second day he was better and third and fourth days better and better. Havoc finished his Mexican championship easily with one B.O.B. and a Group IV. The fourth day we showed his sire and five littermates, all champions. Havoc was doing a great job, the only one to make the cut, along with his sire for B.O.B. under a breeder judge from another country. On this day when we were picking up our dog stuff to go home and my husband left the dogs to load the car, Havoc showed for the first time how he felt about us. He began desperately howling, barking, and scratching his crate because he tought he was being abandoned.
I am very proud of him, not for finishing his championship as he did, and I don’t mean the records, but for his attitude. I’m proud of him because he is a survivor and has done it with such style. Havoc is a very special dog and is not only lucky to have been rescued, but we are lucky to have him.
My advice to anyone selling or getting rid of a dog is to not ever give one as a present; not ever, no matter what the reason might be.
At present Havoc is in the United States to finish his American championship. Who knows, maybe he will find a wonderful home there. If not, he will come back to Mexico City to stay with us.
Havoc, was rescued by myself, his own breeder after a nightmare he lived.
First I got his body back, but not his mind. The day I knew his mind was with me again at 100% was this very day where he is shown by Priscila finishing his Mexican Championship.
His brothers did not want him back home, so I asked Larry Johnson to find a place for him in the US, and found one, in his heart and has stayed since then with the Johnson´s till now.
Years have passed and everytime I spent Thanksgiving with the Johnsons, when I arrived from the airport and before coming into the house I whistled to Havoc in the way all my dogs recognize , I could hear his barking answering me back.
In this picture he is 12, and is winning an Award of Merit showing the soundness, health, and the strength that has made him and his brothers very unique.
Irish Setter KENNEL CLUB Breed Standard 11-May-06
General Appearance
Must be racy, balanced and full of quality. In conformation, proportionate.
Characteristics
Most handsome, and refined in looks, tremendously active with untiring readiness
to range and hunt under any conditions.
Temperament
Demonstrably affectionate.
Head and Skull
Head long and lean, not narrow or snipy, not coarse at the ears. Skull oval
(from ear to ear) having plenty of brain room and well-defined occipital protuberance.
From occiput to stop and from stop to tip of nose to be parallel and of equal
length, brows raised showing stop. Muzzle moderately deep, fairly square at
end. Jaws of nearly equal length, flews not pendulous, nostrils wide. Colour
of nose dark mahogany, dark walnut or black.
Eyes
Dark hazel to dark brown, not too large, preferably like an unshelled almond
in shape, set level (not obliquely), under brows showing kind, intelligent
expression.
Ears
Of moderate size, fine in texture, set on low, well back and hanging in a
neat fold close to head.
Mouth
Jaws strong, with a perfect, regular and complete scissor bite, i.e. upper
teeth closely overlapping lower teeth and set square to the jaws.
Neck
Moderately long, very muscular but not too thick, slightly arched and free
from all tendency to throatiness, setting cleanly without a break of topline
into shoulders.
Forequarters
Shoulders fine at points, deep and sloping well back. Forelegs straight and
sinewy having plenty of bone, with elbows free, well let down and not inclined
either in or out.
Body
Chest as deep as possible, rather narrow in front. Ribs well sprung leaving
plenty of lung room and carried well back to muscular loin, slightly arched.
Firm straight topline gently sloping downwards from withers.
Hindquarters
Wide and powerful. Hindlegs from hip to hock long and muscular, from hock
to heel short and strong. Stifle and hock joints well bent and not inclined
either in or out.
Feet
Small, very firm; toes strong, close together and arched.
Tail
Of moderate length proportionate to size of body, set on just below the level
of the back, strong at root tapering to a fine point and carried as nearly
as possible on a level with or below the back.
Gait/Movement
Free flowing, driving movement with true action when viewed from front or
rear, and in profile, showing perfect co-ordination.
Coat
On head, front of legs and tips of ears, short and fine; on all other parts
of body and legs of moderate length, flat and as free as possible from curl
or wave. Feathers on upper portion of ears long and silky; on back of fore-
and hindlegs long and fine. Fair amount of hair on belly, forming a nice fringe
which may extend on to chest and throat. Feet well feathered between toes.
Tail to have fringe of moderately long hair decreasing in length as it approaches
point. All feathering to be as straight and flat as possible.
Colour
Rich chestnut with no trace of black. White on chest, throat, chin or toes,
or small star on forehead or narrow streak or blaze on nose or face not to
disqualify.
Faults
Any departure from the foregoing points should be considered a fault and the
seriousness with which the fault should be regarded should be in exact proportion
to its degree and its effect upon the health and welfare of the dog.
Note
Male animals should have two apparently normal testicles fully descended into
the scrotum.
Last Updated - March 1994